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Agenda

  • Review RO material distributed and released in the wiki (Rafa - UPM)
  • Plans for generating the Wf4Ever manifesto and make it public (All)
  • How to deal with the definition of ROs for astronomy and bioinformatics (All)
  • Other actions for the next two weeks (All)

Participants: Oscar, Rafa, Daniel Garijo, Paolo, Stian, Dave de Roure, Jun, Graham, Stian, Sean, Jits, Khalid, Carole

Phone numbers

  • Spain: +34 (0)912 75 4122
  • UK: +44 (0)20 700 51000
  • Netherlands: +31 (0)20 201 5493
  • Participant code: 707 357 612.

Minutes

See skype chat transcript below.

Actions

  • Action: to UPM to create the table for the manifesto.
  • Action: to UPM to work with IAA in the following two weeks, to fill in the table with + or -'s and examples if possible, trying to abstract the methodology used so that it can be applicable to other domains.

Next call

10amGMT/11amCET 2 February 2011

Skype transcript

http://www.wf4ever-project.org/wiki/display/docs/RO+Definition,+Properties+and+Stereotypes

01/19/2011    11:14:27 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Next steps:

01/19/2011    11:14:41 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

1/ Table showing what an RO is for wf4ever. 

01/19/2011    11:14:55 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Topics that we fill be focusing on. E.g. Repeatable elements.

01/19/2011    11:15:14 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

2/ To talk to users to see what their ROs will look like.

01/19/2011    11:15:35 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

which properties are important. 

01/19/2011    11:17:08 AM    from Jun to Everyone:

http://www.wf4ever-project.org/wiki/display/docs/Data+packages+in+ADMIRAL

01/19/2011    11:17:42 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone:

very related to the RO Requirements work that Sean and Guillermo have been discussing

01/19/2011    11:18:43 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

For our ADMIRAl work, I think the key properties are Referenceable, Retrievable, Reusable, Repurposable - in roughly that order.

01/19/2011    11:18:46 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone:

need to understand that for each property there will be a lot of additonal requirements arising (e.g., if we want to repeat experiment we may need a large hardware infrastructure)

01/19/2011    11:19:09 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Jun: packaging for biologists.

01/19/2011    11:19:18 AM    from Paolo to Everyone:

I really liked ADMIRAL!!

01/19/2011    11:19:26 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

concrete examples of what a data package contains. 

01/19/2011    11:19:29 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Very similar to ROs.

01/19/2011    11:19:33 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

/me thanks!

01/19/2011    11:19:51 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

minimal sets of metadata plus enumerations of what's inside. 

01/19/2011    11:19:54 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

An example to give to users

01/19/2011    11:20:07 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Jits: discussion with users in breakout sessions.

01/19/2011    11:20:11 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Discussed interfaces. 

01/19/2011    11:20:17 AM    from Paolo to Everyone:

hits the nail on the head: what kind of metadata it should include and how it should be expressed to ensure interoperability

01/19/2011    11:20:21 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Mockups!

01/19/2011    11:20:45 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Jun: Not just mockups but a working system. 

01/19/2011    11:20:58 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Feedback from biologists to helo create an interface.

01/19/2011    11:21:21 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Carole: Big drive in Systems Biology towards reproducability.

01/19/2011    11:21:27 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

ISA (also in oxford)

01/19/2011    11:21:34 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

emerging community standard

01/19/2011    11:21:45 AM    from Jun to Everyone:

I can't hear Carole's any more

01/19/2011    11:21:52 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

effectively a reproducability RO structure. Built into SYSMO SEEK

01/19/2011    11:21:54 AM    from Jun to Everyone:

oh, she is back

01/19/2011    11:22:10 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

DDer: Omics team i OERC working in neurohub.

01/19/2011    11:22:21 AM    from Stian to Everyone:

so #6 is DDR who noised over Carole :)

01/19/2011    11:22:22 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

ISA work - our research group (but not Jun or I) is also involved with this in Oxford.

01/19/2011    11:22:22 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

defined an aggregation. Rather low level

01/19/2011    11:22:36 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Dder will add documentation about this.

01/19/2011    11:23:01 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Oscar: tables + specific examples to identify characteristics ofdomains. 

01/19/2011    11:23:09 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Others can then compare what we're doing. 

01/19/2011    11:23:16 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: Tables can be filled in by others.

01/19/2011    11:23:45 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Oscar: Set of R's is only one of the dimensins that can be considered.

01/19/2011    11:23:58 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

We don't want to be too seduced by the niceness of Rs!!

01/19/2011    11:24:50 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone:

would be nice to have a reduced set of Rs, the 5 ones that we want to focus on more

01/19/2011    11:25:02 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Next stage in the list is to group/characterise.

01/19/2011    11:25:11 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

eigenvectors :-)

01/19/2011    11:25:39 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Oscar: lack of graphics that show the relationships between ROs. 

01/19/2011    11:27:05 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

SKB: Not sure how you'd represent the Rs graphically??

01/19/2011    11:27:10 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

Discussioin of relationships betwen ROs is reminiscebt of the LiquidPubs work;  wondering if we need to start with simpler steps?

01/19/2011    11:27:15 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Paolo: Derivation?

01/19/2011    11:27:23 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

Composition?

01/19/2011    11:27:38 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: 1/ How do I market ROs?

01/19/2011    11:27:54 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Graphical rep that presents ideas

01/19/2011    11:28:04 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

2/ Data model that could be graphical or logical.

01/19/2011    11:28:28 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Oscar: 1/ 

01/19/2011    11:28:33 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Marketing material!

01/19/2011    11:29:16 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

SKB: How would we represent reproducability in a graphical way??

01/19/2011    11:29:25 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Jits: Stories, diagrams around use cases.

01/19/2011    11:29:46 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: LOD cloud is very important (but meaningless)

01/19/2011    11:30:11 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

Everyone wants to be "in the picture" :)

01/19/2011    11:30:31 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

[Can someone make sure that this channel gets saved]

01/19/2011    11:30:45 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Slogan/graphic

01/19/2011    11:31:21 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

state transition diagrams for lifecycle.

01/19/2011    11:32:01 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

there was an RO bus picture

01/19/2011    11:32:36 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Khalid: Somehting like LOD cloud that shows actors participating in the exchange.

01/19/2011    11:32:36 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

"Linked data" ---> "Linked procedures"?

01/19/2011    11:32:53 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

@graham: Dder talks about about linked open methods...

01/19/2011    11:33:08 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: Important to consider reuse across communities.

01/19/2011    11:33:33 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Consumption not production.

01/19/2011    11:33:33 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

It seems to me tha ROs are a journey rather than a destination

01/19/2011    11:33:45 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Need users/scenarios from outside the project.

01/19/2011    11:33:55 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

E.g. transfer of stuff from ADMIRAL to SYSMO

01/19/2011    11:34:29 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

More impact if we can go outside the project.

01/19/2011    11:34:40 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Graham: Q about what consitutes success.

01/19/2011    11:34:53 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Not a single endpoint but rather a direction of travel.

01/19/2011    11:35:29 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Graham: identify some waypoints along the way.

01/19/2011    11:36:16 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

milestones about things.

01/19/2011    11:36:21 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

whatever those things might be.

01/19/2011    11:36:38 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Jits: What deliverables could be used as milestones.

01/19/2011    11:37:02 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Oscar: Stereotypes. 

01/19/2011    11:37:05 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Common usages

01/19/2011    11:37:22 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

e.g. Astronomy has these relationships

01/19/2011    11:38:18 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

Relationships between ROs:  does every success manifest as such a relationship?  E.g. interoperability between systems?

01/19/2011    11:38:19 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: RO archaeology

01/19/2011    11:38:30 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Paper with supplementary materials is an RO. 

01/19/2011    11:38:45 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Recasting/retrofitting other information into the RO model.

01/19/2011    11:39:19 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Migration paths to take existing things.

01/19/2011    11:39:44 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

19 million documents in pubmed.

01/19/2011    11:39:49 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

How would we migrate those?

01/19/2011    11:40:17 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Graham: Wondering whether focus on relationships cuts us off from successes.

01/19/2011    11:40:26 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Not everything is about relationships between ROs.

01/19/2011    11:40:35 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

A single RO could provide value

01/19/2011    11:41:20 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Internal/external properties.

01/19/2011    11:42:06 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Paolo: Agree with archaeology, but don't forget that user groups are primary target. 

01/19/2011    11:42:17 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

So make sure that user groups are involved in this activity.

01/19/2011    11:42:46 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: Need to give users to help 

01/19/2011    11:42:52 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Asking them to imagine something they haven't go.

01/19/2011    11:43:06 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Easier to present stuff and say "do you like this?"

01/19/2011    11:43:33 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: Take the last five papers you published. What are the ROs in those papers?

01/19/2011    11:45:12 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Jose: Need to provide users something to start from.

01/19/2011    11:46:23 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

SKB: This may expose that users have a different notion of what ROs are

01/19/2011    11:46:59 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

ROs for users: not training, but elicitation?

01/19/2011    11:46:59 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Khalid: Give us as much information so that another user can reproduce what they've done. 

01/19/2011    11:47:12 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

"What would someone need to reproduce this".

01/19/2011    11:47:18 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

*THAT's* the Research Object

01/19/2011    11:47:38 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

ROs are in our heads, not the heads of scientists.

01/19/2011    11:47:51 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Jits: Users shouldn't see ROs, but services and apps.

01/19/2011    11:48:09 AM    from Jose to Everyone:

but we need to come up with a way to make RO explicit!

01/19/2011    11:48:12 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Graham: Researchers have a notion of a unit of information. 

01/19/2011    11:48:32 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: The things that's cited. 

01/19/2011    11:49:59 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

[repeat from earlier] For our ADMIRAl work, I think the key properties are Referenceable, Retrievable, Reusable, Repurposable - in roughly that order.

01/19/2011    11:50:24 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Graham Klyne  (privately):

i think that you left your mic open

01/19/2011    11:50:26 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: Differences between packaging, preservation and publishing. 

01/19/2011    11:50:31 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

The 3 P'S!! 

01/19/2011    11:50:31 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

... and preservation :)

01/19/2011    11:50:36 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

No more R's :-)

01/19/2011    11:50:53 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

The R's are dead, long live the P's

01/19/2011    11:51:24 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: Researchers trained from day 1 to package things together

01/19/2011    11:52:08 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: SYSMO Pals meeting coming up.

01/19/2011    11:52:22 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Access to 13 big research projects in biology. Could get the PALS to do some of this.

01/19/2011    11:52:41 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: Stuart and Katy on board.

01/19/2011    11:53:27 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Pique: Can supply some graphical ideas from astronomy domain.

01/19/2011    11:53:44 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Need to take into account the existence of primitive ROs.

01/19/2011    11:53:55 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Need to fit with that and extend, not change.

01/19/2011    11:54:02 AM    from Jose to Everyone:

Primitive = Legacy???

01/19/2011    11:54:02 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

So understanding the existing primitive ROs.

01/19/2011    11:54:15 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

Yes!  take account of primitive ROs that already exist - don't break these.

01/19/2011    11:54:17 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

@jose: not necesarily.

01/19/2011    11:54:29 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

@jose: legacy could be complex.

01/19/2011    11:54:34 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

CAG: Ramps. 

01/19/2011    11:54:59 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

Must not make things too complicated

01/19/2011    11:55:08 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone:

Actions: 1. UPM to create the table for the manifesto. 2. UPM to work with IAA in the following two weeks, to fill in the table with + or -'s and examples if possible, trying to abstract the methodology used so that it can be applicable to other domains. 3. SYSMO PALs meeting to do the same. 4. Continue identifying, for external use, the key R's or P's to be shown

01/19/2011    11:56:17 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Raul Palma  (privately):

we can barely hear you

01/19/2011    11:56:23 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Raul Palma  (privately):

speak up

01/19/2011    11:56:27 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Raul Palma  (privately):

ahh, ok

01/19/2011    11:57:01 AM    from Raul Palma to Everyone:

http://www.wf4ever-project.org/wiki/display/docs/Similar+Compound+Research+Objects

01/19/2011    11:58:32 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

terrible echo again

01/19/2011    11:58:55 AM    from Stian to Everyone:

#7 is echoing - is that Graham?

01/19/2011    11:58:57 AM    from Jun to Everyone:

surface some of the materilas onto the web site

01/19/2011    11:59:06 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Graham Klyne  (privately):

;-)

01/19/2011    11:59:12 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Graham Klyne  (privately):

your mic!!

01/19/2011    11:59:15 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

yes

01/19/2011    11:59:20 AM    from Jun to Everyone:

everybody is echoing now:)

01/19/2011    11:59:26 AM    from Sean to Everyone:

now now now....

01/19/2011    11:59:41 AM    from Graham Klyne to Oscar Corcho (privately):

I think my mic's muted ... but can't tell for sure

01/19/2011    11:59:47 AM    from Raul Palma to Everyone:

still too muh echo

01/19/2011    11:59:57 AM    from Jose to Everyone:

it seems the echo is closing the session for us ;-)

01/19/2011    12:00:05 PM    from Sean to Everyone:

Who's responsible for action 4?

01/19/2011    12:00:25 PM    from Sean to Everyone:

can't understand a thing.

01/19/2011    12:00:26 PM    from Jun to Everyone:

didn't get it

01/19/2011    12:00:32 PM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

The echo might be my mobile, not the mic? I'll hang up

01/19/2011    12:00:36 PM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone:

still too much echo

01/19/2011    12:00:40 PM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone:

probably we should close now

01/19/2011    12:00:47 PM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone:

and we put up things in the wiki

01/19/2011    12:00:51 PM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone:

I will upload the chat there

01/19/2011    12:00:52 PM    from Jose to Everyone:

I seem to understand responsible for point 4 shoud be Sean

01/19/2011    12:00:54 PM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone:

Is that better (can't hear now)?

01/19/2011    12:01:02 PM    from Stian to Everyone:

Graham - yes, now the echo went

01/19/2011    12:01:03 PM    from Sean to Everyone:

@jose. Ok

01/19/2011    12:01:03 PM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone:

yes, SEan, and with the help of UPM

01/19/2011    12:01:06 PM    from Stian to Everyone:

and noone want to talk anymore

01/19/2011    12:01:07 PM    from Jun to Everyone:

no so much. don't worry Graham

01/19/2011    12:01:26 PM    from Jose to Everyone:

Plz. count us in at iSOCO for that, too!

01/19/2011    11:02:36 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone: Attendees: Oscar, Rafa, Daniel Garijo, Paolo, Stian, Dave de Roure
01/19/2011    11:02:51 AM    from Paolo to Everyone: hi
01/19/2011    11:03:03 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone: Jun
01/19/2011    11:03:48 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone: graham
01/19/2011    11:06:26 AM    from Sean to Everyone: terrible echo on the audio
01/19/2011    11:08:18 AM    from Paolo to Everyone: may I suggest that everyone mutes unless they are speaking
01/19/2011    11:08:19 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone: trying to see whether I can mute number 7
01/19/2011    11:08:34 AM    from Paolo to Everyone: is # Dave by any chance?
01/19/2011    11:08:38 AM    from Paolo to Everyone: #7
01/19/2011    11:08:52 AM    from Paolo to Everyone: on mobile
01/19/2011    11:09:10 AM    from Jun to Everyone: I don't hear anything any more
01/19/2011    11:09:14 AM    from Jun to Everyone: is that normal?
01/19/2011    11:09:24 AM    from Paolo to Everyone: no Jun
01/19/2011    11:09:32 AM    from Paolo to Everyone: I hear voices :-) == many of them
01/19/2011    11:10:30 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: I don't know which number I am
01/19/2011    11:11:05 AM    from Sean to Everyone: In m/cr Stian, Sean, Jits, Khalid, Carole
01/19/2011    11:12:42 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Agenda:
01/19/2011    11:12:44 AM    from Sean to Everyone: 1. Review RO material distributed and released in the wiki (Rafa - UPM)
2. Plans for generating the Wf4Ever manifesto and make it public (All)
3. How to deal with the definition of ROs for astronomy and bioinformatics (All)
4. Other actions for the next two weeks (All)
01/19/2011    11:12:46 AM    from Jun to Everyone: I redialed in using skype
01/19/2011    11:14:05 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone: http://www.wf4ever-project.org/wiki/display/docs/RO+Definition,+Properties+and+Stereotypes
01/19/2011    11:14:27 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Next steps:
01/19/2011    11:14:41 AM    from Sean to Everyone: 1/ Table showing what an RO is for wf4ever. 
01/19/2011    11:14:55 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Topics that we fill be focusing on. E.g. Repeatable elements.
01/19/2011    11:15:14 AM    from Sean to Everyone: 2/ To talk to users to see what their ROs will look like.
01/19/2011    11:15:35 AM    from Sean to Everyone: which properties are important. 
01/19/2011    11:17:08 AM    from Jun to Everyone: http://www.wf4ever-project.org/wiki/display/docs/Data+packages+in+ADMIRAL
01/19/2011    11:17:42 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone: very related to the RO Requirements work that Sean and Guillermo have been discussing
01/19/2011    11:18:43 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: For our ADMIRAl work, I think the key properties are Referenceable, Retrievable, Reusable, Repurposable - in roughly that order.
01/19/2011    11:18:46 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone: need to understand that for each property there will be a lot of additonal requirements arising (e.g., if we want to repeat experiment we may need a large hardware infrastructure)
01/19/2011    11:19:09 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Jun: packaging for biologists.
01/19/2011    11:19:18 AM    from Paolo to Everyone: I really liked ADMIRAL!!
01/19/2011    11:19:26 AM    from Sean to Everyone: concrete examples of what a data package contains. 
01/19/2011    11:19:29 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Very similar to ROs.
01/19/2011    11:19:33 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: /me thanks!
01/19/2011    11:19:51 AM    from Sean to Everyone: minimal sets of metadata plus enumerations of what's inside. 
01/19/2011    11:19:54 AM    from Sean to Everyone: An example to give to users
01/19/2011    11:20:07 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Jits: discussion with users in breakout sessions.
01/19/2011    11:20:11 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Discussed interfaces. 
01/19/2011    11:20:17 AM    from Paolo to Everyone: hits the nail on the head: what kind of metadata it should include and how it should be expressed to ensure interoperability
01/19/2011    11:20:21 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Mockups!
01/19/2011    11:20:45 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Jun: Not just mockups but a working system. 
01/19/2011    11:20:58 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Feedback from biologists to helo create an interface.
01/19/2011    11:21:21 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Carole: Big drive in Systems Biology towards reproducability.
01/19/2011    11:21:27 AM    from Sean to Everyone: ISA (also in oxford)
01/19/2011    11:21:34 AM    from Sean to Everyone: emerging community standard
01/19/2011    11:21:45 AM    from Jun to Everyone: I can't hear Carole's any more
01/19/2011    11:21:52 AM    from Sean to Everyone: effectively a reproducability RO structure. Built into SYSMO SEEK
01/19/2011    11:21:54 AM    from Jun to Everyone: oh, she is back
01/19/2011    11:22:10 AM    from Sean to Everyone: DDer: Omics team i OERC working in neurohub.
01/19/2011    11:22:21 AM    from Stian to Everyone: so #6 is DDR who noised over Carole :)
01/19/2011    11:22:22 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: ISA work - our research group (but not Jun or I) is also involved with this in Oxford.
01/19/2011    11:22:22 AM    from Sean to Everyone: defined an aggregation. Rather low level
01/19/2011    11:22:36 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Dder will add documentation about this.
01/19/2011    11:23:01 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Oscar: tables + specific examples to identify characteristics ofdomains. 
01/19/2011    11:23:09 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Others can then compare what we're doing. 
01/19/2011    11:23:16 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: Tables can be filled in by others.
01/19/2011    11:23:45 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Oscar: Set of R's is only one of the dimensins that can be considered.
01/19/2011    11:23:58 AM    from Sean to Everyone: We don't want to be too seduced by the niceness of Rs!!
01/19/2011    11:24:50 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone: would be nice to have a reduced set of Rs, the 5 ones that we want to focus on more
01/19/2011    11:25:02 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Next stage in the list is to group/characterise.
01/19/2011    11:25:11 AM    from Sean to Everyone: eigenvectors :-)
01/19/2011    11:25:39 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Oscar: lack of graphics that show the relationships between ROs. 
01/19/2011    11:27:05 AM    from Sean to Everyone: SKB: Not sure how you'd represent the Rs graphically??
01/19/2011    11:27:10 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: Discussioin of relationships betwen ROs is reminiscebt of the LiquidPubs work;  wondering if we need to start with simpler steps?
01/19/2011    11:27:15 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Paolo: Derivation?
01/19/2011    11:27:23 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: Composition?
01/19/2011    11:27:38 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: 1/ How do I market ROs?
01/19/2011    11:27:54 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Graphical rep that presents ideas
01/19/2011    11:28:04 AM    from Sean to Everyone: 2/ Data model that could be graphical or logical.
01/19/2011    11:28:28 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Oscar: 1/ 
01/19/2011    11:28:33 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Marketing material!
01/19/2011    11:29:16 AM    from Sean to Everyone: SKB: How would we represent reproducability in a graphical way??
01/19/2011    11:29:25 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Jits: Stories, diagrams around use cases.
01/19/2011    11:29:46 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: LOD cloud is very important (but meaningless)
01/19/2011    11:30:11 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: Everyone wants to be "in the picture" :)
01/19/2011    11:30:31 AM    from Sean to Everyone: [Can someone make sure that this channel gets saved]
01/19/2011    11:30:45 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Slogan/graphic
01/19/2011    11:31:21 AM    from Sean to Everyone: state transition diagrams for lifecycle.
01/19/2011    11:32:01 AM    from Sean to Everyone: there was an RO bus picture
01/19/2011    11:32:36 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Khalid: Somehting like LOD cloud that shows actors participating in the exchange.
01/19/2011    11:32:36 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: "Linked data" ---> "Linked procedures"?
01/19/2011    11:32:53 AM    from Sean to Everyone: @graham: Dder talks about about linked open methods...
01/19/2011    11:33:08 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: Important to consider reuse across communities.
01/19/2011    11:33:33 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Consumption not production.
01/19/2011    11:33:33 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: It seems to me tha ROs are a journey rather than a destination
01/19/2011    11:33:45 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Need users/scenarios from outside the project.
01/19/2011    11:33:55 AM    from Sean to Everyone: E.g. transfer of stuff from ADMIRAL to SYSMO
01/19/2011    11:34:29 AM    from Sean to Everyone: More impact if we can go outside the project.
01/19/2011    11:34:40 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Graham: Q about what consitutes success.
01/19/2011    11:34:53 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Not a single endpoint but rather a direction of travel.
01/19/2011    11:35:29 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Graham: identify some waypoints along the way.
01/19/2011    11:36:16 AM    from Sean to Everyone: milestones about things.
01/19/2011    11:36:21 AM    from Sean to Everyone: whatever those things might be.
01/19/2011    11:36:38 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Jits: What deliverables could be used as milestones.
01/19/2011    11:37:02 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Oscar: Stereotypes. 
01/19/2011    11:37:05 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Common usages
01/19/2011    11:37:22 AM    from Sean to Everyone: e.g. Astronomy has these relationships
01/19/2011    11:38:18 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: Relationships between ROs:  does every success manifest as such a relationship?  E.g. interoperability between systems?
01/19/2011    11:38:19 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: RO archaeology
01/19/2011    11:38:30 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Paper with supplementary materials is an RO. 
01/19/2011    11:38:45 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Recasting/retrofitting other information into the RO model.
01/19/2011    11:39:19 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Migration paths to take existing things.
01/19/2011    11:39:44 AM    from Sean to Everyone: 19 million documents in pubmed.
01/19/2011    11:39:49 AM    from Sean to Everyone: How would we migrate those?
01/19/2011    11:40:17 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Graham: Wondering whether focus on relationships cuts us off from successes.
01/19/2011    11:40:26 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Not everything is about relationships between ROs.
01/19/2011    11:40:35 AM    from Sean to Everyone: A single RO could provide value
01/19/2011    11:41:20 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Internal/external properties.
01/19/2011    11:42:06 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Paolo: Agree with archaeology, but don't forget that user groups are primary target. 
01/19/2011    11:42:17 AM    from Sean to Everyone: So make sure that user groups are involved in this activity.
01/19/2011    11:42:46 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: Need to give users to help 
01/19/2011    11:42:52 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Asking them to imagine something they haven't go.
01/19/2011    11:43:06 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Easier to present stuff and say "do you like this?"
01/19/2011    11:43:33 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: Take the last five papers you published. What are the ROs in those papers?
01/19/2011    11:45:12 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Jose: Need to provide users something to start from.
01/19/2011    11:46:23 AM    from Sean to Everyone: SKB: This may expose that users have a different notion of what ROs are
01/19/2011    11:46:59 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: ROs for users: not training, but elicitation?
01/19/2011    11:46:59 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Khalid: Give us as much information so that another user can reproduce what they've done. 
01/19/2011    11:47:12 AM    from Sean to Everyone: "What would someone need to reproduce this".
01/19/2011    11:47:18 AM    from Sean to Everyone: *THAT's* the Research Object
01/19/2011    11:47:38 AM    from Sean to Everyone: ROs are in our heads, not the heads of scientists.
01/19/2011    11:47:51 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Jits: Users shouldn't see ROs, but services and apps.
01/19/2011    11:48:09 AM    from Jose to Everyone: but we need to come up with a way to make RO explicit!
01/19/2011    11:48:12 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Graham: Researchers have a notion of a unit of information. 
01/19/2011    11:48:32 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: The things that's cited. 
01/19/2011    11:49:59 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: [repeat from earlier] For our ADMIRAl work, I think the key properties are Referenceable, Retrievable, Reusable, Repurposable - in roughly that order.
01/19/2011    11:50:24 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Graham Klyne  (privately): i think that you left your mic open
01/19/2011    11:50:26 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: Differences between packaging, preservation and publishing. 
01/19/2011    11:50:31 AM    from Sean to Everyone: The 3 P'S!! 
01/19/2011    11:50:31 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: ... and preservation :)
01/19/2011    11:50:36 AM    from Sean to Everyone: No more R's :-)
01/19/2011    11:50:53 AM    from Sean to Everyone: The R's are dead, long live the P's
01/19/2011    11:51:24 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: Researchers trained from day 1 to package things together
01/19/2011    11:52:08 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: SYSMO Pals meeting coming up.
01/19/2011    11:52:22 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Access to 13 big research projects in biology. Could get the PALS to do some of this.
01/19/2011    11:52:41 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: Stuart and Katy on board.
01/19/2011    11:53:27 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Pique: Can supply some graphical ideas from astronomy domain.
01/19/2011    11:53:44 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Need to take into account the existence of primitive ROs.
01/19/2011    11:53:55 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Need to fit with that and extend, not change.
01/19/2011    11:54:02 AM    from Jose to Everyone: Primitive = Legacy???
01/19/2011    11:54:02 AM    from Sean to Everyone: So understanding the existing primitive ROs.
01/19/2011    11:54:15 AM    from Graham Klyne to Everyone: Yes!  take account of primitive ROs that already exist - don't break these.
01/19/2011    11:54:17 AM    from Sean to Everyone: @jose: not necesarily.
01/19/2011    11:54:29 AM    from Sean to Everyone: @jose: legacy could be complex.
01/19/2011    11:54:34 AM    from Sean to Everyone: CAG: Ramps. 
01/19/2011    11:54:59 AM    from Sean to Everyone: Must not make things too complicated
01/19/2011    11:55:08 AM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone: Actions: 1. UPM to create the table for the manifesto. 2. UPM to work with IAA in the following two weeks, to fill in the table with + or -'s and examples if possible, trying to abstract the methodology used so that it can be applicable to other domains. 3. SYSMO PALs meeting to do the same. 4. Continue identifying, for external use, the key R's or P's to be shown
01/19/2011    11:57:01 AM    from Raul Palma to Everyone: http://www.wf4ever-project.org/wiki/display/docs/Similar+Compound+Research+Objects
01/19/2011    11:58:57 AM    from Jun to Everyone: surface some of the materilas onto the web site
01/19/2011    12:00:05 PM    from Sean to Everyone: Who's responsible for action 4?
01/19/2011    12:00:52 PM    from Jose to Everyone: I seem to understand responsible for point 4 shoud be Sean
01/19/2011    12:01:03 PM    from Oscar Corcho to Everyone: yes, SEan, and with the help of UPM

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